中部第 56 经（Sujato 英译）第 1 阅读页 · With Upāli · 1/4

Middle Discourses 56Middle Discourses 56With UpāliWith Upāli

So I have heard.So I have heard.At one time the Buddha was staying near Nāḷandā in Pāvārika’s Mango Grove.At one time the Buddha was staying near Nāḷandā in Pāvārika’s Mango Grove.At that time the Jain ascetic of the Ñātika clan was residing at Nāḷandā together with a large assembly of Jain ascetics.At that time the Jain ascetic of the Ñātika clan was residing at Nāḷandā together with a large assembly of Jain ascetics.

Then the Jain ascetic Dīgha Tapassī wandered for alms in Nāḷandā. After the meal, on his return from almsround, he went to Pāvārika’s Mango Grove. There he approached the Buddha, and exchanged greetings with him.Then the Jain ascetic Dīgha Tapassī wandered for alms in Nāḷandā. After the meal, on his return from almsround, he went to Pāvārika’s Mango Grove. There he approached the Buddha, and exchanged greetings with him.When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he stood to one side. The Buddha said to him,When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he stood to one side. The Buddha said to him,“There are seats, Tapassī. Please sit if you wish.”“There are seats, Tapassī. Please sit if you wish.”

When he said this, Dīgha Tapassī took a low seat and sat to one side.When he said this, Dīgha Tapassī took a low seat and sat to one side.The Buddha said to him,The Buddha said to him,“Tapassī, how many kinds of deed does the Jain ascetic of the Ñātika clan describe for performing bad deeds?”“Tapassī, how many kinds of deed does the Jain ascetic of the Ñātika clan describe for performing bad deeds?”

“Reverend Gotama, the Jain Ñātika doesn’t usually speak in terms of ‘deeds’.“Reverend Gotama, the Jain Ñātika doesn’t usually speak in terms of ‘deeds’.He usually speaks in terms of ‘rods’.”He usually speaks in terms of ‘rods’.”“Then how many kinds of rod does the Jain Ñātika describe for performing bad deeds?”“Then how many kinds of rod does the Jain Ñātika describe for performing bad deeds?”

“The Jain Ñātika describes three kinds of rod for performing bad deeds:“The Jain Ñātika describes three kinds of rod for performing bad deeds:the physical rod, the verbal rod, and the mental rod.”the physical rod, the verbal rod, and the mental rod.”“But are these kinds of rod all distinct from each other?”“But are these kinds of rod all distinct from each other?”

“Yes, each is quite distinct.”“Yes, each is quite distinct.”“Of the three rods thus analyzed and differentiated, which rod does the Jain Ñātika describe as being the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds: the physical rod, the verbal rod, or the mental rod?”“Of the three rods thus analyzed and differentiated, which rod does the Jain Ñātika describe as being the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds: the physical rod, the verbal rod, or the mental rod?”“The Jain Ñātika describes the physical rod as being the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.”“The Jain Ñātika describes the physical rod as being the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.”

“Do you say the physical rod, Tapassī?”“Do you say the physical rod, Tapassī?”“I say the physical rod, Reverend Gotama.”“I say the physical rod, Reverend Gotama.”“Do you say the physical rod, Tapassī?”“Do you say the physical rod, Tapassī?”

“I say the physical rod, Reverend Gotama.”“I say the physical rod, Reverend Gotama.”“Do you say the physical rod, Tapassī?”“Do you say the physical rod, Tapassī?”“I say the physical rod, Reverend Gotama.”“I say the physical rod, Reverend Gotama.”

Thus the Buddha made Dīgha Tapassī stand by this point up to the third time.Thus the Buddha made Dīgha Tapassī stand by this point up to the third time.When this was said, Dīgha Tapassī said to the Buddha,When this was said, Dīgha Tapassī said to the Buddha,“But Reverend Gotama, how many kinds of rod do you describe for performing bad deeds?”“But Reverend Gotama, how many kinds of rod do you describe for performing bad deeds?”

“Tapassī, the Realized One doesn’t usually speak in terms of ‘rods’.“Tapassī, the Realized One doesn’t usually speak in terms of ‘rods’.He usually speaks in terms of ‘deeds’.”He usually speaks in terms of ‘deeds’.”“Then how many kinds of deed do you describe for performing bad deeds?”“Then how many kinds of deed do you describe for performing bad deeds?”

“I describe three kinds of deed for performing bad deeds:“I describe three kinds of deed for performing bad deeds:physical deeds, verbal deeds, and mental deeds.”physical deeds, verbal deeds, and mental deeds.”“But are these kinds of deed all distinct from each other?”“But are these kinds of deed all distinct from each other?”

“Yes, each is quite distinct.”“Yes, each is quite distinct.”“Of the three deeds thus analyzed and differentiated, which deed do you describe as being the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds: physical deeds, verbal deeds, or mental deeds?”“Of the three deeds thus analyzed and differentiated, which deed do you describe as being the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds: physical deeds, verbal deeds, or mental deeds?”“I describe mental deeds as being the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much physical deeds or verbal deeds.”“I describe mental deeds as being the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much physical deeds or verbal deeds.”

“Do you say mental deeds, Reverend Gotama?”“Do you say mental deeds, Reverend Gotama?”“I say mental deeds, Tapassī.”“I say mental deeds, Tapassī.”“Do you say mental deeds, Reverend Gotama?”“Do you say mental deeds, Reverend Gotama?”

“I say mental deeds, Tapassī.”“I say mental deeds, Tapassī.”“Do you say mental deeds, Reverend Gotama?”“Do you say mental deeds, Reverend Gotama?”“I say mental deeds, Tapassī.”“I say mental deeds, Tapassī.”

Thus the Jain ascetic Dīgha Tapassī made the Buddha stand by this point up to the third time, after which he rose from his seat and went to see the Jain Ñātika.Thus the Jain ascetic Dīgha Tapassī made the Buddha stand by this point up to the third time, after which he rose from his seat and went to see the Jain Ñātika.Now at that time the Jain Ñātika was sitting together with a large assembly of Bālaki laypeople headed by Upāli.Now at that time the Jain Ñātika was sitting together with a large assembly of Bālaki laypeople headed by Upāli.The Jain Ñātika saw Dīgha Tapassī coming off in the distanceThe Jain Ñātika saw Dīgha Tapassī coming off in the distance

and said to him,and said to him,“So, Tapassī, where are you coming from in the middle of the day?”“So, Tapassī, where are you coming from in the middle of the day?”“Just now, sir, I’ve come from the presence of the ascetic Gotama.”“Just now, sir, I’ve come from the presence of the ascetic Gotama.”

“But did you have some discussion with him?”“But did you have some discussion with him?”“I did.”“I did.”“And what kind of discussion did you have with him?”“And what kind of discussion did you have with him?”

Then Dīgha Tapassī informed the Jain Ñātika of all they had discussed.Then Dīgha Tapassī informed the Jain Ñātika of all they had discussed.When he had spoken, the Jain Ñātika said to him,When he had spoken, the Jain Ñātika said to him,“Good, good, Tapassī!“Good, good, Tapassī!

The Jain ascetic Dīgha Tapassī has answered the ascetic Gotama like a learned disciple who rightly understands their teacher’s instructions.The Jain ascetic Dīgha Tapassī has answered the ascetic Gotama like a learned disciple who rightly understands their teacher’s instructions.For how significant is the measly mental rod when compared with the solid physical rod?For how significant is the measly mental rod when compared with the solid physical rod?Rather, the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.”Rather, the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.”

When he said this, the householder Upāli said to him,When he said this, the householder Upāli said to him,“Good, sir! Well done, Dīgha Tapassī!“Good, sir! Well done, Dīgha Tapassī!The Honorable Tapassī has answered the ascetic Gotama like a learned disciple who rightly understands their teacher’s instructions.The Honorable Tapassī has answered the ascetic Gotama like a learned disciple who rightly understands their teacher’s instructions.

For how significant is the measly mental rod when compared with the solid physical rod?For how significant is the measly mental rod when compared with the solid physical rod?Rather, the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.Rather, the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.I’d better go and refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine regarding this point.I’d better go and refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine regarding this point.

If he stands by the position that he stated to Dīgha Tapassī, I’ll take him on in debate and drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong man would grab a fleecy sheep and drag it to and fro and round about!If he stands by the position that he stated to Dīgha Tapassī, I’ll take him on in debate and drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong man would grab a fleecy sheep and drag it to and fro and round about!Taking him on in debate, I’ll drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong brewer’s worker would toss a large brewer’s sieve into a deep lake, grab it by the corners, and drag it to and fro and round about!Taking him on in debate, I’ll drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong brewer’s worker would toss a large brewer’s sieve into a deep lake, grab it by the corners, and drag it to and fro and round about!

Taking him on in debate, I’ll shake him down and about and give him a beating, like a strong brewer’s mixer would grab a strainer by the corners and shake it down and about, and give it a beating!Taking him on in debate, I’ll shake him down and about and give him a beating, like a strong brewer’s mixer would grab a strainer by the corners and shake it down and about, and give it a beating!I’ll play a game of hemp-washing with the ascetic Gotama, like a sixty-year-old elephant would plunge into a deep lotus pond and play a game of hemp-washing!I’ll play a game of hemp-washing with the ascetic Gotama, like a sixty-year-old elephant would plunge into a deep lotus pond and play a game of hemp-washing!Sir, I’d better go and refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point.”Sir, I’d better go and refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point.”

“Go, householder, refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point.“Go, householder, refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point.For either I should do so, or Dīgha Tapassī, or you.”For either I should do so, or Dīgha Tapassī, or you.”When he said this, Dīgha Tapassī said to the Jain Ñātika,When he said this, Dīgha Tapassī said to the Jain Ñātika,

“Sir, I don’t believe it’s a good idea for the householder Upāli to rebut the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine.“Sir, I don’t believe it’s a good idea for the householder Upāli to rebut the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine.For the ascetic Gotama is deceitful. He knows a conversion trick, and uses it to convert the disciples of other religions.”For the ascetic Gotama is deceitful. He knows a conversion trick, and uses it to convert the disciples of other religions.”“It is impossible, Tapassī, it cannot happen that Upāli could become Gotama’s disciple.“It is impossible, Tapassī, it cannot happen that Upāli could become Gotama’s disciple.

But it is possible that Gotama could become Upāli’s disciple.But it is possible that Gotama could become Upāli’s disciple.Go, householder, refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point.Go, householder, refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point.For either I should do so, or Dīgha Tapassī, or you.”For either I should do so, or Dīgha Tapassī, or you.”

For a second time …For a second time …and a third time, Dīgha Tapassī said to the Jain Ñātika,and a third time, Dīgha Tapassī said to the Jain Ñātika,“Sir, I don’t believe it’s a good idea for the householder Upāli to rebut the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine.“Sir, I don’t believe it’s a good idea for the householder Upāli to rebut the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine.

For the ascetic Gotama is deceitful. He knows a conversion trick, and uses it to convert the disciples of other religions.”For the ascetic Gotama is deceitful. He knows a conversion trick, and uses it to convert the disciples of other religions.”“It is impossible, Tapassī, it cannot happen that Upāli could become Gotama’s disciple.“It is impossible, Tapassī, it cannot happen that Upāli could become Gotama’s disciple.But it is possible that Gotama could become Upāli’s disciple.But it is possible that Gotama could become Upāli’s disciple.

Go, householder, refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point.Go, householder, refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine on this point.For either I should do so, or Dīgha Tapassī, or you.”For either I should do so, or Dīgha Tapassī, or you.”“Yes, sir,” replied the householder Upāli to the Jain Ñātika. He rose from his seat, bowed, and respectfully circled him, keeping him on his right. Then he went to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him,“Yes, sir,” replied the householder Upāli to the Jain Ñātika. He rose from his seat, bowed, and respectfully circled him, keeping him on his right. Then he went to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him,

“Sir, did the Jain ascetic Dīgha Tapassī come here?”“Sir, did the Jain ascetic Dīgha Tapassī come here?”“He did, householder.”“He did, householder.”“But did you have some discussion with him?”“But did you have some discussion with him?”

“I did.”“I did.”“And what kind of discussion did you have with him?”“And what kind of discussion did you have with him?”Then the Buddha informed Upāli of all they had discussed.Then the Buddha informed Upāli of all they had discussed.

When he said this, the householder Upāli said to him,When he said this, the householder Upāli said to him,“Good, sir, well done by Tapassī!“Good, sir, well done by Tapassī!The Jain ascetic Dīgha Tapassī has answered the ascetic Gotama like a learned disciple who rightly understands their teacher’s instructions.The Jain ascetic Dīgha Tapassī has answered the ascetic Gotama like a learned disciple who rightly understands their teacher’s instructions.

For how impressive is the measly mental rod when compared with the solid physical rod?For how impressive is the measly mental rod when compared with the solid physical rod?Rather, the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.”Rather, the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.”“Householder, so long as you debate on the basis of truth, we can have some discussion about this.”“Householder, so long as you debate on the basis of truth, we can have some discussion about this.”

“I will debate on the basis of truth, sir.“I will debate on the basis of truth, sir.Let us have some discussion about this.”Let us have some discussion about this.”“What do you think, householder?“What do you think, householder?

Take a Jain ascetic who is sick, suffering, gravely ill. They turn down cold water and use only hot water.Take a Jain ascetic who is sick, suffering, gravely ill. They turn down cold water and use only hot water.Not getting cold water, they might die.Not getting cold water, they might die.Now, where does the Jain Ñātika say they would be reborn?”Now, where does the Jain Ñātika say they would be reborn?”

“Sir, there are gods called ‘mind-bound’. They would be reborn there.“Sir, there are gods called ‘mind-bound’. They would be reborn there.Why is that?Why is that?Because they died with mental attachment.”Because they died with mental attachment.”

“Think about it, householder! You should think before answering.“Think about it, householder! You should think before answering.What you said before and what you said after don’t match up.What you said before and what you said after don’t match up.But you said that you would debate on the basis of truth.”But you said that you would debate on the basis of truth.”

“Even though the Buddha says this, still the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.”“Even though the Buddha says this, still the physical rod is the most blameworthy for performing bad deeds, not so much the verbal rod or the mental rod.”“What do you think, householder?“What do you think, householder?Take a Jain ascetic who is restrained in the fourfold constraint, is restrained in all that is to be restrained, is bridled in all that is to be restrained, has shaken off evil in all that is to be restrained, and is curbed in all that is to be restrained.Take a Jain ascetic who is restrained in the fourfold constraint, is restrained in all that is to be restrained, is bridled in all that is to be restrained, has shaken off evil in all that is to be restrained, and is curbed in all that is to be restrained.

When going out and coming back they injure many little creatures.When going out and coming back they injure many little creatures.Now, what result does the Jain Ñātika say they would incur?”Now, what result does the Jain Ñātika say they would incur?”“Sir, the Jain Ñātika says that unintentional acts are not very blameworthy.”“Sir, the Jain Ñātika says that unintentional acts are not very blameworthy.”

“But if they are intentional?”“But if they are intentional?”“Then they are very blameworthy.”“Then they are very blameworthy.”