长部第 23 经（Sujato 英译）第 1 阅读页 · With Pāyāsi · 1/6

Long Discourses 23Long Discourses 23With PāyāsiWith Pāyāsi

So I have heard.So I have heard.At one time Venerable Kassapa the Prince was wandering in the land of the Kosalans together with a large Saṅgha of five hundred mendicants when he arrived at a Kosalan citadel named Setavyā.At one time Venerable Kassapa the Prince was wandering in the land of the Kosalans together with a large Saṅgha of five hundred mendicants when he arrived at a Kosalan citadel named Setavyā.He stayed in the rosewood grove to the north of Setavyā.He stayed in the rosewood grove to the north of Setavyā.

Now at that time the chieftain Pāyāsi was living in Setavyā. It was a crown property given by King Pasenadi of Kosala, teeming with living creatures, full of hay, wood, water, and grain, a royal park endowed to a brahmin.Now at that time the chieftain Pāyāsi was living in Setavyā. It was a crown property given by King Pasenadi of Kosala, teeming with living creatures, full of hay, wood, water, and grain, a royal park endowed to a brahmin.

1. On Pāyāsi1. On Pāyāsi

Now at that time Pāyāsi had the following harmful misconception:Now at that time Pāyāsi had the following harmful misconception:“There is no afterlife. No beings are reborn spontaneously. There’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”“There is no afterlife. No beings are reborn spontaneously. There’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”The brahmins and householders of Setavyā heard,The brahmins and householders of Setavyā heard,

“It seems the ascetic Kassapa the Prince—a disciple of the ascetic Gotama—is staying in the rosewood grove to the north of Setavyā.“It seems the ascetic Kassapa the Prince—a disciple of the ascetic Gotama—is staying in the rosewood grove to the north of Setavyā.He has this good reputation:He has this good reputation:‘He is astute, competent, intelligent, learned, a brilliant speaker, eloquent, mature, a perfected one.’‘He is astute, competent, intelligent, learned, a brilliant speaker, eloquent, mature, a perfected one.’

It’s good to see such perfected ones.”It’s good to see such perfected ones.”Then, exiting Setavyā, they formed into companies and headed north to the grove.Then, exiting Setavyā, they formed into companies and headed north to the grove.Now at that time the chieftain Pāyāsi had retired to the upper floor of his stilt longhouse for his midday nap.Now at that time the chieftain Pāyāsi had retired to the upper floor of his stilt longhouse for his midday nap.

He saw the brahmins and householders heading north toward the grove,He saw the brahmins and householders heading north toward the grove,and addressed his butler,and addressed his butler,“My butler, why are the brahmins and householders heading north toward the grove?”“My butler, why are the brahmins and householders heading north toward the grove?”

“The ascetic Kassapa the Prince—a disciple of the ascetic Gotama—is staying in the rosewood grove to the north of Setavyā.“The ascetic Kassapa the Prince—a disciple of the ascetic Gotama—is staying in the rosewood grove to the north of Setavyā.He has this good reputation:He has this good reputation:‘He is astute, competent, intelligent, learned, a brilliant speaker, eloquent, mature, a perfected one.’‘He is astute, competent, intelligent, learned, a brilliant speaker, eloquent, mature, a perfected one.’

They’re going to see that Kassapa the Prince.”They’re going to see that Kassapa the Prince.”“Well then, go to the brahmins and householders and say to them:“Well then, go to the brahmins and householders and say to them:‘Worthy sir, the chieftain Pāyāsi asks‘Worthy sir, the chieftain Pāyāsi asks

you to wait, as he will also go to see the ascetic Kassapa the Prince.’you to wait, as he will also go to see the ascetic Kassapa the Prince.’Before Kassapa the Prince persuades those foolish and incompetent brahmins and householders thatBefore Kassapa the Prince persuades those foolish and incompetent brahmins and householders thatthere is an afterlife, there are beings reborn spontaneously, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds—there is an afterlife, there are beings reborn spontaneously, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds—

for none of these things are true!”for none of these things are true!”“Yes, worthy sir,” replied the butler, and did as he was asked.“Yes, worthy sir,” replied the butler, and did as he was asked.Then Pāyāsi escorted by the brahmins and householders, went up to Kassapa the Prince, and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side.Then Pāyāsi escorted by the brahmins and householders, went up to Kassapa the Prince, and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side.

Before sitting down to one side, some of the brahmins and householders of Setavyā bowed, some exchanged greetings and polite conversation, some held up their cupped palms toward Kassapa the Prince, some announced their name and clan, while some kept silent.Before sitting down to one side, some of the brahmins and householders of Setavyā bowed, some exchanged greetings and polite conversation, some held up their cupped palms toward Kassapa the Prince, some announced their name and clan, while some kept silent.

2. Nihilism2. Nihilism

Seated to one side, the chieftain Pāyāsi said to Venerable Kassapa the Prince,Seated to one side, the chieftain Pāyāsi said to Venerable Kassapa the Prince,“Worthy Kassapa, this is my doctrine and view:“Worthy Kassapa, this is my doctrine and view:‘There is no afterlife. No beings are reborn spontaneously. There’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds.’”‘There is no afterlife. No beings are reborn spontaneously. There’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds.’”

“Chieftain, may I never see or hear of anyone holding such a doctrine or view!“Chieftain, may I never see or hear of anyone holding such a doctrine or view!For how on earth can anyone say such a thing?For how on earth can anyone say such a thing?

2.1. The Simile of the Moon and Sun2.1. The Simile of the Moon and Sun

Well then, chieftain, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like.Well then, chieftain, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like.What do you think, chieftain?What do you think, chieftain?Are the moon and sun in this world or the other world? Are they gods or humans?”Are the moon and sun in this world or the other world? Are they gods or humans?”

“They are in the other world, worthy Kassapa, and they are gods, not humans.”“They are in the other world, worthy Kassapa, and they are gods, not humans.”“By this method it ought to be proven that“By this method it ought to be proven thatthere is an afterlife, there are beings reborn spontaneously, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”there is an afterlife, there are beings reborn spontaneously, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”

“Even though the worthy Kassapa says this, still I think that“Even though the worthy Kassapa says this, still I think thatthere is no afterlife, no beings are reborn spontaneously, and there’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”there is no afterlife, no beings are reborn spontaneously, and there’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”“Is there a method by which you can prove what you say?”“Is there a method by which you can prove what you say?”

“There is, worthy Kassapa.”“There is, worthy Kassapa.”“How, exactly, chieftain?”“How, exactly, chieftain?”“Well, I have friends and colleagues, relatives and kin who kill living creatures, steal, and commit sexual misconduct. They use speech that’s false, backbiting, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re covetous, malicious, with wrong view.“Well, I have friends and colleagues, relatives and kin who kill living creatures, steal, and commit sexual misconduct. They use speech that’s false, backbiting, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re covetous, malicious, with wrong view.

Some time later they become sick, suffering, gravely ill.Some time later they become sick, suffering, gravely ill.When I know thatWhen I know thatthey will not recover from their illness, I go to them and say,they will not recover from their illness, I go to them and say,

‘Worthy sir, there are some ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view:‘Worthy sir, there are some ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view:“Those who kill living creatures, steal, and commit sexual misconduct; use speech that’s false, backbiting, harsh, or nonsensical; and are covetous, malicious, and have wrong view—when their body breaks up, after death, are reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.”“Those who kill living creatures, steal, and commit sexual misconduct; use speech that’s false, backbiting, harsh, or nonsensical; and are covetous, malicious, and have wrong view—when their body breaks up, after death, are reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.”

You do all these things.You do all these things.If what those ascetics and brahmins say is true, when your body breaks up, after death, you’ll be reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.If what those ascetics and brahmins say is true, when your body breaks up, after death, you’ll be reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.If that happens, worthy sir, come and tell me thatIf that happens, worthy sir, come and tell me that

there is an afterlife, there are beings reborn spontaneously, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds.there is an afterlife, there are beings reborn spontaneously, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds.I trust you and believe you. Anything you see will be just as if I’ve seen it for myself.’I trust you and believe you. Anything you see will be just as if I’ve seen it for myself.’They agree to this. But they don’t come back to tell me, nor do they send a messenger.They agree to this. But they don’t come back to tell me, nor do they send a messenger.

This is the method by which I prove thatThis is the method by which I prove thatthere is no afterlife, no beings are reborn spontaneously, and there’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”there is no afterlife, no beings are reborn spontaneously, and there’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”

2.2. The Simile of the Bandit2.2. The Simile of the Bandit

“Well then, chieftain, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like.“Well then, chieftain, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like.What do you think, chieftain?What do you think, chieftain?Suppose they were to arrest a bandit, a criminal and present him to you, saying,Suppose they were to arrest a bandit, a criminal and present him to you, saying,

‘Sir, this is a bandit, a criminal.‘Sir, this is a bandit, a criminal.Punish him as you will.’Punish him as you will.’Then you’d say to them,Then you’d say to them,

‘Well then, my men, tie this man’s arms tightly behind his back with a strong rope. Shave his head and march him from street to street and square to square to the beating of a harsh drum. Then take him out the south gate and there, at the place of execution to the south of the city, chop off his head.’‘Well then, my men, tie this man’s arms tightly behind his back with a strong rope. Shave his head and march him from street to street and square to square to the beating of a harsh drum. Then take him out the south gate and there, at the place of execution to the south of the city, chop off his head.’Saying, ‘Good,’ they’d do as they were told, sitting him down at the place of execution.Saying, ‘Good,’ they’d do as they were told, sitting him down at the place of execution.

Could that bandit get the executioners to wait, saying,Could that bandit get the executioners to wait, saying,‘Please, good executioners! I have friends and colleagues, relatives and kin in such-and-such village or town. Wait until I’ve visited them, then I’ll come back’? Or would they just chop off his head as he prattled on?”‘Please, good executioners! I have friends and colleagues, relatives and kin in such-and-such village or town. Wait until I’ve visited them, then I’ll come back’? Or would they just chop off his head as he prattled on?”“They’d just chop off his head.”“They’d just chop off his head.”

“So even a human bandit couldn’t get his human executioners to stay his execution.“So even a human bandit couldn’t get his human executioners to stay his execution.What then of your friends and colleagues, relatives and kin who are reborn in a lower realm after doing bad things? Could they get the wardens of hell to wait, saying,What then of your friends and colleagues, relatives and kin who are reborn in a lower realm after doing bad things? Could they get the wardens of hell to wait, saying,‘Please, good wardens of hell! Wait until I’ve gone to the chieftain Pāyāsi to tell him that‘Please, good wardens of hell! Wait until I’ve gone to the chieftain Pāyāsi to tell him that

there is an afterlife, there are beings reborn spontaneously, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds’?there is an afterlife, there are beings reborn spontaneously, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds’?By this method, too, it ought to be proven thatBy this method, too, it ought to be proven thatthere is an afterlife, there are beings reborn spontaneously, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”there is an afterlife, there are beings reborn spontaneously, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”

“Even though the worthy Kassapa says this, still I think that“Even though the worthy Kassapa says this, still I think thatthere is no afterlife.”there is no afterlife.”“Is there a method by which you can prove what you say?”“Is there a method by which you can prove what you say?”

“There is, worthy Kassapa.”“There is, worthy Kassapa.”“How, exactly, chieftain?”“How, exactly, chieftain?”“Well, I have friends and colleagues, relatives and kin who refrain from killing living creatures, stealing, and sexual misconduct. They refrain from speech that’s false, backbiting, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re content, kind-hearted, with right view.“Well, I have friends and colleagues, relatives and kin who refrain from killing living creatures, stealing, and sexual misconduct. They refrain from speech that’s false, backbiting, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re content, kind-hearted, with right view.

Some time later they become sick, suffering, gravely ill.Some time later they become sick, suffering, gravely ill.When I know thatWhen I know thatthey will not recover from their illness, I go to them and say,they will not recover from their illness, I go to them and say,

‘Worthy sir, there are some ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view:‘Worthy sir, there are some ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view:“Those who refrain from killing living creatures, stealing, and sexual misconduct; who refrain from speech that’s false, backbiting, harsh, or nonsensical; and are content, kind-hearted, with right view—when their body breaks up, after death, are reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.”“Those who refrain from killing living creatures, stealing, and sexual misconduct; who refrain from speech that’s false, backbiting, harsh, or nonsensical; and are content, kind-hearted, with right view—when their body breaks up, after death, are reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.”

You do all these things.You do all these things.If what those ascetics and brahmins say is true, when your body breaks up, after death, you’ll be reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.If what those ascetics and brahmins say is true, when your body breaks up, after death, you’ll be reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.If that happens, worthy sir, come and tell me thatIf that happens, worthy sir, come and tell me that

there is an afterlife.there is an afterlife.I trust you and believe you. Anything you see will be just as if I’ve seen it for myself.’I trust you and believe you. Anything you see will be just as if I’ve seen it for myself.’They agree to this. But they don’t come back to tell me, nor do they send a messenger.They agree to this. But they don’t come back to tell me, nor do they send a messenger.

This is the method by which I prove thatThis is the method by which I prove thatthere is no afterlife.”there is no afterlife.”

2.3. The Simile of the Sewer2.3. The Simile of the Sewer

“Well then, chieftain, I shall give you a simile.“Well then, chieftain, I shall give you a simile.For by means of a simile some sensible people understand the meaning of what is said.For by means of a simile some sensible people understand the meaning of what is said.Suppose there were a man sunk over his head in a sewer.Suppose there were a man sunk over his head in a sewer.

Then you were to order someoneThen you were to order someoneto pull him out of the sewer,to pull him out of the sewer,and they’d agree to do so.and they’d agree to do so.

Then you’d tell them toThen you’d tell them tocarefully scrape the dung off that man’s body with bamboo scrapers,carefully scrape the dung off that man’s body with bamboo scrapers,and they’d agree to do so.and they’d agree to do so.

Then you’d tell them toThen you’d tell them tocarefully scrub that man’s body down with pale clay three times,carefully scrub that man’s body down with pale clay three times,and they’d do so.and they’d do so.

Then you’d tell them toThen you’d tell them tosmear that man’s body with oil, and carefully wash him down with fine paste three times,smear that man’s body with oil, and carefully wash him down with fine paste three times,and they’d do so.and they’d do so.

Then you’d tell them toThen you’d tell them todress that man’s hair and beard,dress that man’s hair and beard,and they’d do so.and they’d do so.